Talk:Buddhism

 

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Buddhism needs first of all putting in some sort of coherent arrangement. There's plenty more to be doneafter that, which you're welcome to stay & help with if you like, but that's the priority.

Added to User:J M Rice/Desk. Peter jackson (talk) 12:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Although buddha did need some followers.
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Contents

Lead

Revise/refine lead in accordance with WP:LEAD to make it comprehensive, neutral and readable.

Central concepts

Evaluate the possible use of a section that summarizes important concepts common to all streams of Buddhism.

highlights of old discussions

new discussions

Presumably, if we're leaving the lead to later, that would apply to this too. Peter jackson (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Structure

Develop an effective and comprehensive structure for the article that provides readers with a sense of the sweep of Buddhist philosophy and practice. Note that to reduce overall article length, some sections could use summary style, with links to appropriate sub-articles

Talk:Buddhism/Structure#highlights of old discussions

new discussions

Talk:Buddhism/Structure#refractored text

current (developing) consensus

  1. Beliefs and Practices
    1. General (maybe)
      1. Worldview
      2. Karma
      3. Dharma
      4. Rebirth
      5. Buddha
      6. Sangha
      7. Vinaya
      8. Monastic vs. lay practice
    2. Denominational Variations
      1. Theravada
        1. Scriptures and texts
        2. (variations?)
      2. Mahayana
        1. Scriptures and texts
        2. Zen/Chan
        3. Pure Land (Amida)
        4. Nichiren
        5. Vajrayana
          1. Tibetan
          2. Shingon
      3. Defunct schools
  2. History (adapted from above)
    1. Early Buddhism
      1. Origins: the Buddha &c
      2. karma & rebirth, 4 noble truths, 5 precepts, monastic order, stupas, abhidharma ...
      3. Diaspora
    2. Theravada
      1. arrival in Ceylon
      2. spread through southeast asia
      3. conservative
    3. East Asian (Mahayana) Buddhism
      1. origins of Mahayana
      2. introduction to China
      3. teachings &practices: bodhisattvas, emptiness, mind-only ... Pure Land, Zen &c
      4. radical reform of earlier tradition
      5. spread through China, Korea, Vietnam, Japan
    4. Vajrayana
      1. origins of tantra
      2. introduction to Tibet
      3. Tibet, Mongolia, Bhutan, Kalmykia
      4. practices
      5. spread to Tibetan Buddhism close to this
      6. less radical relative to Mahayana
  3. Buddhist Ethics
    1. five precepts
    2. compassion and generosity
  4. Demographics
  5. Major historical Figures
  6. Sacred Places
  7. Current Buddhism
    1. Modern Mission
    2. Women in Buddhism

ok, pardon me for continuing to build structure. I've refractored Peter's lists into the sub-page, and incorporated some of the ideas here.

my suggestion is that we begin by taking the historical material on the main page and rebuilding it into the history structure as given above. once the history section is laid out, then it should be easier to work on the Beliefs and practices section. the sections at the end are more like isolated topics that can be cleaned up later. --Ludwigs2 18:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to appear negative, but I see a lot of problems with the above.

  1. I'm not sure what you can say about dharma in a general way
  2. Pure Land should come before Zen, being more popular & of similar age
  3. Do you know what diaspora means? It refers to Buddhists outside the "homelands", whether emigrants, their descendants, or converts. So it belongs later, not here.
  4. Including later Indian Buddhism in East Asian & Tibetan is not usual practice, tho' the Penguin Handbook does it to some extent. It seems inappropriate in a section on history. Furthermore, to do it with the later schools but not the earlier is discriminatory.
  5. There seems to be a lot of duplication between the history & the beliefs/practices section. Perhaps inevitable, but doesn't look good & is probably disapproved of by WP guidelines &/or FA/GA assessment criteria.
  6. The term Vajrayana is used in 2 different senses in different parts of this contents list. That would look really bad.
  7. Why is ethics separated out from practices?
  8. "###spread to Tibetan Buddhism close to this" presumably an error

On the question of a general beliefs/practices section, here are a couple of citations to think about:

Peter jackson (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's way too long. Why are the three gems interpolated with 'rebirth' ? Do we really want to glob old schools together, regardless of their background? eg Jonang (ok, it was only THOUGHT to be defunct) and Sarvastivada?
Also, surely most of this stuff should link to main articles.. eg. History --> Vajrayana, and then just a summary with a link to the main article. This is important, because otherwise there are synchronisation errors between the main articles and the boundary article.
I also reject the idea that there is one Buddhist worldview. Any syncretized amalgamation of views ceases to maintain the flavour and impact the component views, and syncretism itself becomes yet another view. However, there ARE facts. All Buddhists accept the trikaya triratna, the buddha, the four noble truths, etc. Of course, the interpretations of even these core beliefs is varied.
I am further very wary of all this division of Buddhism - as if that is the main concern of Buddha and of Buddhists.
But hey.. I've been off wp. for 2 years. What do my views matter? (20040302 (talk) 12:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC))
  • I like your point about using summary style with links to main articles. Peter's concern (below) about the quality of the other articles needs to be addressed as well. As to whether your views matter. They do as far as I'm concerned. Sunray (talk) 17:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Your mention of Jonang raises complicated issues of what is a school? Its teachings are followed by many Nyingma & Kagyu teachers.
The problem with links to main articles, as I said before, but has now been refactored somewhere, is that a lot of them need drastic rewriting just like this article. So do we have to rewrite all the others before we can rewrite this one?
I agree with you about worldview. That's just the point I've been trying to make. It's not true that all Buddhists accept the trikaya. That's a Mahayana doctrine. Or did you mean triratna? All Buddhists accept the 4 NTs, but Mahayana regards them as more or less unimportant. See User:Peter jackson#Four noble truths. It's vital not to confuse shared with important, or arrange the article in such a way as to confuse the 2 for the reader. Therefore I oppose any sort of shared teachings section. Calling these sorts of things "core" is misleading. The idea that there is a core becomes another view!
I forgot to add earlier that, if the lead is to say Buddhism is usually considered a religion, which it doesn't at present, then there should be an opening section mentioning the alternative POVs. Perhaps it should do other things too. Peter jackson (talk) 14:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course I was saying triratna (amended). Indeed - what is a school? Division by vinaya makes some sense - and vinaya provides very clear distinctions. Division by school is very complex - look at the subdivisions in eg the Kargyu. Also, what about small schools, closed schools, or short-lived schools. Divisions by philosophy, (Jonang for example) I contend, is impossible. Overlaps, re-interpretations, and so on just won't work. Also - even though I applaud that (at last) we see Vajrayana as a grouping under Mahayana - there is actually an Eastern Nepalese tradition of 'Sravaka Vajrayana'. So even these major divisions could be too complex. Another problem with pigeon-holing is that it can lead to an artificial alienation - and we are still in the throes of the reconciliation of traditions due to the information age and fast transportation: I believe that every tradition has been learning that ancient enemies are modern friends.
Re. Links to main articles - I understand your fears of the informational diaspora - but it is a central intention of WP to organise information that way, and it allows for respective experts to manage the minutae of each section. There is NO need to rewrite all the others before this - things are far more organic than that. I would suggest that this is actually inevitable. May as well get started.
As for 'religion' - there is no doubt that secular buddhism is a major modern movement that crosses most of the traditional schools, but there is also no doubt that Buddhism's roots in ideas that are beyond empirical experience ( rebirth, karma, nirvana ) entail that it is reasonable to call it a religion. Of course, traditionally there are also lots of gods - just no creator, no judge, and no intercession. I feel this issue could be best addressed with a link to secular buddhism, which appears not to exist at the moment. (20040302 (talk) 09:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC))
Re: Links to main articles: Your point about the central intention of WP in organizing information (via wikilinks) is bang on, IMO.
With respect to religion, I think we should state that Buddhism is a religion and a philosophy. And I agree we should get started. Sunray (talk) 00:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
There is disagreement about whether Buddhism is a religion. Therefore that is a POV, not a fact, & stating it as fact violates WP:NPOV. That's probably true of philosophy too. I see below that you seem to accept my suggestion. Peter jackson (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Peter - I don't want to disagree with any of your points, but the fact of the matter is we need to start. you're comments are all good, but by piling them on the way you've so far tended to do, you completely inhibit any progress on the page. we're not going to work out all the kinks in advance, and trying is just going to make us all crazy. so here's what I say (again): let's mock up the history section, which seems fairly well-sourced and unambiguous. one we have the history fleshed out, then we can start worrying about about the beliefs section, and start discussions about overlap, content, and ordering.

I don't know who keeps removing the 'usually considered' phrase - I keep putting it back, but I'll look into it.

Jonang - I don't know. lol. it'll get worked out. where do you think they should go?

20040302 - I hear you.

I'm thinking we should remove the NPOV tag and add an 'under revision' type tag. it will carry the same meaning to readers, and maynbe get editors to participate on the talk page rather than continuing to edit the main page. --Ludwigs2 18:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Sunray (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

To start with starting. I have no objection to starting with the history section. However, the way it's arranged above is not the way it's usually done. The usual arrangement has again been refactored away:

  1. Indian
  2. Theravada
  3. East Asian
  4. Tibetan
  5. Modern/Western

An alternative I've seen is

  1. "Sectarian": ie early, pre-Asokan period, when Buddhism was probably a quite small sect
  2. "Civilizational": spread thro' India & beyond, with plenty of interaction between diferent areas
  3. "Cultural": period of separate development:
    1. Theravada
    2. East Asian
    3. Tibetan
  4. Modern period, with strong interactions between different Buddhist traditions, & also between Buddhism on the one hand & other religions & secular traditions of thought on the other

I don't think the arrangement above, with middle-period Indian Buddhism grouped with East Asian & late Indian with Tibetan, is a good idea, particularly with the former: East Asian Buddhism is quite different from Indian Mahayana. (Indeed, one might argue that the main divisions of Buddhism are Indic & Sinic.)

What is a school? We might say it's a Western invention imposed on Buddhism, perhaps. The Macmillan Encyclopedia of Religion, in the article on Schools, Buddhist, distinguishes 3 different forms of classification:

Organizationally, Buddhism consists of

Traditions of thought & practice often cut across these "denominational" groupings (& each other).

Links: the point I'm concerned about is this: do we have to summarize what the linked subarticle says, or are we allowed to correct it & summarize what it ought to say?

I think that we should correct it and summarize what it ought to say. Sunray (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Religion. Remember we're supposed to be following reliable sources, not our own opinions. Most RSs call Buddhism a religion, but

I suggested a compromise: the lead should start "Buddhism is usually considered a religion, one of the three major universal religions." The body of the article should start with a section repeating this & mentioning the other views. Some people agreed with at least the general idea. Nobody in this column has disagreed since Luis left, but the article doen't follow.

I like the formula "usually considered a religion." However, if we say it is "one of the three major universal religions," I fear we may start a multi-party religious war!  ;-) Sunray (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
That's straightforward. The next largest universal religion, Bahaism, is way behind, with adherents only in 7 figures, as against 9 for Buddhists & 10 for Christians & Muslims. So 3 major universal religions make up a clear objective category. The fact that Buddhism is universal, not ethnic, seems to me a pretty important fact to mention. Peter jackson (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
In terms of number of adherents, it is: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. However, some may argue that. For example, make the case that Chinese Folk Religion has more adherents. I don't think that we should saying it is the third or fourth largest. "One of the largest" would be fine by me.Sunray (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Hinduism & Chinese religion are not universal religions; they're ethnic religions. the fact that a few small Hindu groups accept converts doesn't affect the overall picture, as they're a minute proportion of the total. Similarly, altho' one could presumably become Chinese by marriage or adoption, & some Koreans call themselves Confucians & some Westerners Taoists, the same stituation applies there. There are only the 3 major religions that address themselves to the whole of humanity in a realistic sense. Peter jackson (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You are saying that Hinduism and Chinese religion are not universal. There is no doubt in my mind that you are right. However, I do think we should avoid saying "third" largest. We will wind up with endless changes and reverts. However, I have now said my piece. If you don't agree, I will cede to you on this. Sunray (talk) 03:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say 3rd largest; I said 1 of the 3 major. I can even dig up a citation to support that if necessary, tho' it seems to me a WKF. Peter jackson (talk) 09:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to add that I'm leery of putting a number on this as well. it adds nothing to the discussion, and opens up the probability of huge, steaming you-know-what fight. I myself would enjoy arguing with you about hinduism (since modern advaita hinduism is clearly universalistic...  :-D ). is there a reason we need to go there that I'm not seeing? --Ludwigs2 18:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, it'd look odd to say "... a religion, a universal one". "... a religion, one of the three major universal ones" looks better reading to me. Perhaps you can suggest wording. Peter jackson (talk) 08:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
try how I've done it now. Peter jackson (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that the tendency of some Buddhists, as against scholars, to say it's not a religion is a different matter. Sociologists have noted that this happens in all religions. (See link from User:Peter jackson#Buddhism.) Perhaps people want to assert their group's distinctiveness.

What do you think of saying that it is "a religion and a philosophy"? Sunray (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You don't seem to be consistent on this point. You said this above, then agreed with my suggestion, now you revert to this. Peter jackson (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
No I do agree with your suggestion to say "usually considered a religion." I actually typed the other statement first and then responded to your suggestion, though I know it didn't look that way. I sometimes get confused with these long threads. :-( I've since struck the religion & phil comment entirely. Sunray (talk) 03:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Let me again try to state the position. It's a notorious fact that Buddhism is usually considered a religion. However, some specialists disagree, so WP cannot treat this as a fact. I suggested the compromise wording so we don't have all other views in the lead; we put them in an intro after the lead. However, this will only work if no other view is mentioned. If any others are mentioned, it's no longer clear to the reader that there are views other than those mentioned in the lead. Peter jackson (talk) 17:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"no intercession"? Well, perhaps in the literal sense, which I think refers to saints interceding with God. However, let me mention yet again that 1/3 of the world's Buddhists believe that in these degenerate times few if any can follow the path themselves, & so practice devotion to Amitabha in the hope or belief that he will grant them rebirth in his Pure Land. Does that fit your idea of intercession?

There is no doubt that devotional practices in China, Tibet and Southeast Asia qualify as religion. When I observe some of these practices, I wonder where they find this in the teachings of the Buddha. Sunray (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
They may not find it in what you regard as the teachings of the Buddha, but they find it in what they regard as such. Anyone can invent an "original" Buddhism (or Christianity) to suit their own prejudices & dismiss any evidence to the contrary as later interpolation. Like any other conspiracy theory, such ideas can never be disproved. there's plenty of devotionalism in the Pali Canon. Peter jackson (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I realize that. However, I think there is enough scholarship on the basic teachings to know a great deal about what the Buddha did say. And it is thus possible to infer what he would not have said. Sunray (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
See the article for the only statement I've managed to find about scholarly opinion as a whole. Most scholars most of the time give their own opinions without making clear whether others agree with them, which makes our job a lot harder. Do you think that minimal material is enough to draw these sorts of conclusions? I suppose this is irrelevant, as we're supposed to be discussing how to improve the article rather than decide the truth ourselves. I often join in such discussions myself, & was surprised to discover from (I think) Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts that it's considered perfectly proper for anyone who wishes simply to delete extraneous discussions. I'd been under the impression that talk pages weren't supposed to be censored. Peter jackson (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Tag: if you can supply a link to one, I'll see whether I'd consider it adequate.

As requested, I'll leave discussion of sections other than history till later, unless others wish to raise them. Peter jackson (talk) 10:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the way the history section is organized at present. I again had to restore some sense to the hierarchy of headings, but the broad structure already follows what seems to be the standard arrangement used by historians. Why change it to something you've artificially concocted yourself?

I am in strong agreement with you here. The current history section is a good structure to work with, IMO. Sunray (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Details are another matter. For example, there's probably too much proportionately on India. More to the immediate point, the outline above takes in a lot of ideas from an earlier discussion in a different context. The proposal there was for the entire article to be arranged historically, so the teachings/practices had to be included. That remains an option, which would at least save us a lot of arguing about how the section(s) should be done. If not, do we want to duplicate here? Peter jackson (talk) 13:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A concern I have about changing the tag is that, while we're carefully discussing here how to make the article better, other people are coming along & making it worse. The article has such a high editing/reverting/vandalism rate that it's quite a task trying to keep track, & then am I supposed to restart the process every time? Peter jackson (talk) 16:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

well, honstly, I've gotten so caught up in the talk page discussions that I've almost forgotten what's on the page itself - lol. If you think the current history section is pretty much ok, then let me go and see if I can clean it up to the with respect to what you've said above.
to your other point, I say we add a 'work in progress' tag, but then sandbox the page, and let people know that we're working on it there. I'll create a work version right now - I'll put it at 'Talk:Buddhism/Revised' (I'll make a link at the top of the page) that ought to take care of casual vandalism and spurious edits... --Ludwigs2 20:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry about being caught up in the talk page discussions. I am in awe of the work you are doing on this page. Please keep it up!
I think your idea of a "work in progress" tag is excellent. It will give us far more control over the vandalism, IMO, as we will be within our rights to revert any edit that is not in keeping with what we are discussing on the talk pages. I vote we make this change. Sunray (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Voting is not appropriate here (& according to policy it should not usually be taken too seriously anyway. The tag says it shouldn't be removed until the dispute is resolved. I'm still waiting to see the exact wording of the replacement you propose. Peter jackson (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
lol - Peter, I think that was more of a show of support than an actual request for a vote.  :-)
I've been going over the page on the 'revised' version, and I think that the 'rise of mahayana' and 'east asian buddhism' sections need to be combined. I'll take a look at it this afternoon and see what I can do, but I'd appreciate you guys making any necessary revisions, because I'm sure to get something wrong.  :-)
also, I think we need to find some place to talk about the the story of the buddha, because if it's not there, someone will keep adding it. I've put it in its own section for know, but where do we want to place it? in the history section before the 'early buddhism' bit? in a section of its own? --Ludwigs2 20:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be getting confused, so let me repeat how the history section should be organized:
  1. Indian
  2. Theravada
  3. East Asian
  4. Tibetan
  5. Modern/Western
The general material on Mahayana currently in East Asian should presumably move to Indian#Rise of Mahayana &/or the teachings/practices section(s), unless we want even more duplication. Combining the 2 violates the above structure, which you seemed to have just agreed to.
The story of the Buddha should perhaps go in teachings/practices. I think we need to distinguish clearly between the few generally accepted historical facts, which belong under History, & the legend, which is effectively part of Buddhism. For the latter, we must be careful not to censor out the miracles. Peter jackson (talk) 09:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Excellent work. I agree with Peter's suggested structure above. Windy Wanderer (talk) 13:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Ludwigs2: I will admit that confusion is a natural (and I think healthy) state with me. sorry if it gets too visible, though.  :-)
with that in mind, let me ask for clarification. the major headings in the current history section read like this:
  1. Early Buddhism
  2. Rise of Mahayana Buddhism
  3. Emergence of the Vajrayāna
  4. Southern (Theravāda) Buddhism
  5. Eastern (East Asian) Buddhism
  6. Northern (Tibetan) Buddhism
  7. Buddhism today
this conforms to your structure, except for 2 and 3. should they be subheadings of 1, like this:
  1. Early Buddhism
    1. Rise of Mahayana Buddhism
    2. Emergence of the Vajrayāna
  2. Southern (Theravāda) Buddhism
  3. Eastern (East Asian) Buddhism
  4. Northern (Tibetan) Buddhism
  5. Buddhism today
or if not, how should they fit into the structure? --Ludwigs2 18:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. Indian
    1. Early
    2. Mahayana
    3. Vajrayana
  2. Theravada
  3. East Asian
  4. Tibetan
  5. Modern/Western
Peter jackson (talk) 08:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
got it. --Ludwigs2 01:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

structure of 'some teachings' section

I've begun working on the 'some teachings' section - I renamed it 'important concepts'. my thought here is to go through the list of important concepts in buddhism, clarifying differences between denominations as I go. slow going though. does that work for everyone? --Ludwigs2 02:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

To save reinventing the wheel again, I give here Lopez' list of topics. Each chapter starts with an introductory section without separate title.
  1. Universe
    • Reality
    • The end
  2. Buddha
    • 4 NTs
    • Last days
    • Bodies
    • 2 yanas
    • Bodhisattva
    • Other Buddhas & worlds
    • Images
    • Buddha nature
  3. Dharma
    • Word of Buddha
    • Interpretation
    • How many vehicles?
    • Power of the word
  4. Monastic life
    • Rules
    • Ordination
    • Bodhisattva vows
    • Monastic life
    • Nuns
  5. Lay Practice
    • Sangha & state
    • Role of the book
    • Karma
    • Pilgrimage
  6. Enlightenment
    • Tantra
    • Pure Land
    • Zen
    • Meditation on emptiness
That should give ideas on what to include. Peter jackson (talk) 11:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Somewhat idiosyncratic, but seems to be the only author who covers the subject topically. Most simply embed teachings/practices in history, tho' Olson arranges by schools.
Remember, there are teachings already embedded in the history section. If we have a separate teachings section they should be copied or moved. Peter jackson (talk) 14:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
yeah, I know that, but that's a fairly non-problematical cleanup issue. I'm more concerned about getting the topics into a coherent form at this point. this is a useful list to work with. --Ludwigs2 18:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm feeling my way here, but it may be best to arrange the teachings something like this:
  1. karma, rebirth, cosmology
  2. devotion, generosity, 5 precepts, monastic order: ie merit-making practices that make sense within the framework of 1
  3. samatha meditation: as 2, but higher level; mainly Theravada
  4. Theravada concepts of insight, the nature of reality, arahantship, Buddhahood
  5. Mahayana concepts of Buddhas & bodhisattvas, including (not necessarily in this order)
    1. emptiness, mind only, Buddha nature (ie different Mahayana ideas of the nature of ultimate reality)
    2. perfections; crossref Theravada ideas on the point, or combine in some way
    3. ideas on lifetime of Buddha & corresponding different ideas about bodhisattvas (see User:Peter jackson#Bodhisatt(v)a for the odd bits of information I've managed to find so far
    4. powers of a Buddha according to Mahayana; including in particular the Pure Land
    5. practices of Mahayana: Zen & Tantra mainly, but also Nichiren & miscellaneous
Peter jackson (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
On further consideration, I think it might be better to separate theory & practice, as Harvey does:
  1. Theory/teachings/doctrine
    1. Karma & rebirth
    2. 4 NTs (including dependent origination & other basically Theravada ideas)
    3. Mahayana philosophy: emptiness, mind only, Buddha nature/tathagatagarbha, interpenetration
    4. Buddhas & bodhisattvas (including subsection on Amitabha & his Pure Land)
    5. ? not sure where to put decline of the dharma: part of all traditions, but very important in East Asia
  2. Practice
    1. Devotion (including subsections on Pure land & Nichiren)
    2. Morality
    3. Monastic life (including study; at least Harvey puts it here, tho' that's not strictly logical as lay people do it too; perhaps separate heading)
    4. Meditation: samatha, vipassana, Zen, tantra
Peter jackson (talk) 10:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I like this last approach very much. Keeping the Theory and the practice seperated is a very good idea as it gives us the opportunity to introduce the very sophisticated ideas of the buddha and their subsequent interpretations through buddhist scholars without mixing them up with what is actually believed and practised by the uneducated masses. These practises, their regional and denominatational differences, popular beliefs etc. can then can be explored in depth in the practice section. Andi 78.34.212.125 (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I wonder whether you actually understand about the difference between "the very sophisticated ideas of the buddha and their subsequent interpretations through buddhist scholars" & "what is actually believed and practised by the uneducated masses". I suspect you may imagine, as many Western(ized) Buddhists do, that anything that disagrees with their ideas of Buddhism comes in the latter category. Not so. In particular, Pure Land, which I'm emphasizing a lot as the grossest example of the article's bias, is based on scriptures recognized by all Mahayanists & scholars included in standard East Asian collections. Peter jackson (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Peter, firstly, i think i do know the difference well enough, but, secondly, i will admit, you are maybe not that far off with your suspicion: Yes, i am a western buddhist and yes i don´t know much about pure land buddhism which brings me to my third point: Even if i do not know, i do somehow have the little hope that even among those pure land teachers and scholars there may be some regard for the core ideas/foundations of the buddha´s thinking as i know them (from the Buddha´s own words, from Theravada and those Mahayana teachers and scholars deemed important by Tibetan Buddhists), like suffering, samsara, karma, ignorance about the true nature of reality, dependant origination, some form of anatta and/or emptiness, some ethics like practicing generosity, some form of renunciation, usefulness of meditation/training the mind by turning inside rather than looking for happiness on the outside, enlightenment, buddhas&bodhisattvas... ...but on the other hand, i really do not know, so please correct me if i am completely wrong.
Maybe my suspicion is fed by my observation and study of Tibetan Buddhism: as you may certainly know there is a huuuge difference between the theory, that is taught in the monastic universities and the actual practices of the masses, which mainly consist of lighting incense, chanting mantras, turning prayer wheels (which is a more eficient way of reciting mantras) and other devotional acts.
So after all you are actually quite right: i really cannot believe that all the ideas of the Buddha as i know them have been completely lost even in the theory of pure land buddhism. I realize that they cannot be that important if the best thing you can do to reach enlightenment is plainly worshipping Amitabha, but i do have the suspicion that pure land teachers and scholars/philosophers will not object to most of the ideas i mentioned; and if they do, well, then we can write that down under the particular concept and - of course - add some of THEIR basic thoughts. Andi 213.196.197.109 (talk) 13:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not so much that they actually reject those things. Rather, they consider other things important. To present things like that as "the" teachings of Buddhism is to give a false impression. We need to do the article in such a way as to avoid that. Peter jackson (talk) 15:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I should have added that the recitation of mantras is a standard Vajrayana practice, not a popular superstition.
Remember, the basic point of NPOV is that WP does not take sides. In particular, it cannot decide for itself what is "real" Buddhism & what isn't, & must not give some particular version a privileged position in the way the article is arranged. It must cover all the main things conventionally classified as Buddhism in a fair & balanced way. Therefore, it must give due prominence to things considered important by important forms of Buddhism. What is an important form of Buddhism can be determined simply by number of followers. What is important in it may be more difficult. To treat shared teachings as synonymous with important teachings is a fallacy. For the lead, or an introductory section, to treat them so would give a false picture of the reality of Buddhism. Peter jackson (talk) 08:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if we are in much of a disagreement here. Of course we cannot define what "real" Buddhism is. And i agree: "shared" is not necessarily = "important". But 1) I would say ("shared" and at the same time "not shared by other major religions/belief systems") = "important for this article". And 2) Given, there really were not many important doctrinal similarities between Theravada/Indo-Tibetan Mahayana (whose similarities i personally know of) and pure land buddhism - which i still tend to doubt - but given that case, i would say we simply add some of their central concepts to the article (like you suggested in your above structure). Additionally we should head the whole section by a cautionary note where we make it perfectly clear that not all concepts are deemed important by all traditions, and - if necessary - add a short assessment of the importance of each particular concept in the different traditions to the description of each concept.(like e.g. in the part about the 4NT). Andi 78.34.213.217 (talk) 13:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
i hope we won't have too much difficulty with the article proper, but it may be hard to summarize Buddhism in 3 or 4 paras for the lead. Peter jackson (talk) 08:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Additions to article

Note additional sections that need to be incorporated into the article; add specific references and comments below

Examine listings of contents in previous section to see whether any topics there should be added. Peter jackson (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Now refactored into subpage. Peter jackson (talk) 16:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Pure Land

Karma

Rebirth

Demographics

Sources

Offer reliable and verifiable sources from authoritative practitioners and respected academics, that apply to buddhism generally. please note source context (i.e. how, where and why it might be used in the article

I should repeat here, as it's diappeared in the reorganization, that Buddhist sources are reliable sources only for their own views, not those of other Buddhists. Peter jackson (talk) 13:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

practitioner sources

academic sources

Editing and Copyediting

Editorial team to edit article.

Note: According to the guidelines, Wikipedia, tho' legally registered in Florida, is neutral between British & American English. Unless a particular form is appropriate to the subject, the style should be that of the 1st major contributor. Is there an easy way to get to the far end of an extremely long page history? Peter jackson (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

As to Brit or Yank speak, as a Canadian I'm comfortable with either. However, I think we can make the editorial decision on this page. We might see whether the majority of sources used are from one or the other. If I correctly understand the question you are asking in your last sentence, at the top of the page there is a link for "Latest" and another for "Earliest." Clicking on "Earliest" for this article reveals that the first version was in [drum roll] American English. Sunray (talk) 06:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. That seems to settle that question. Peter jackson (talk) 10:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures and other resources

Further develop the article to be as interesting and informative as possible.

Timeline of geography vs. time, doctrines vs. denominations

Might this be of interest?

  500 BCE 250 BCE 100 CE 500 CE 700 CE 1200 CE
 
Indian
Buddhism		 Early Buddhism

 

 Mahayana Vajrayana  
 

 
 
Southern
Buddhism		   Theravada Buddhism
 
Eastern
Buddhism		   Mahayana Buddhism
 
Northern
Buddhism		   Tibetan Buddhism

It's based on something I've been developing for another project and thought it might be of possible use here? (It might even have a facet of truth?) Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 22:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  1. Should start a bit after 500BC
  2. Early Buddhism continued to the end of Indian Buddhism
  3. Indian Buddhism continued to exist for centuries after 1200
  4. Mahayana isn't a good synonym for East Asian Buddhism, as it usually has a different meaning

Peter jackson (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Perfect! I appreciate the feedback. Frankly, I was trying to make things simple by leaving all the end notes off but I'll try to make time this afternoon to dig them up in response. Again, I appreciate the feedback and will respond soon. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Using Peter's numbering scheme above:
1. Gombrich, Theravada Buddhism (1988, rep. 2002), p. 32:
"The Buddhist era begins at the Buddha's Enlightenment. Modern Theravadins date this in 544/3 BCE, but this tradition is of uncertain antiquity and all western scholars agree that it puts the Buddha too early. For a long time scholars favoured either 486 or 483 BCE as the year of the Buddha's death, so that the Enlightenment would fall in 531 or 528 BCE. But the consensus now is that for this date too the evidence is flimsy and we really do not know the Buddha's exact dates. It raises fewer problems if he is dated a bit later. So the best we can say is that he was probably Enlightened between 550 and 450, more likely later rather than earlier."
This can probably be parsed in a number of ways. The mean is 500 BCE and, especially given the scale being used on this graphic (where the smallest interval is 200 years), I placed the starting date just after that label ("500 BCE"). Relateldy, in Robinson & Johnson, The Buddhist Religion (3rd ed., 1982), p. 108, Fig. 1, there's a somewhat similar timeline (representing countries over time, without reference to doctrines or traditions) which also represents Buddhism in "India" as starting at "500 B.C.E."
2. Your point is well-taken. What I was trying to reflect here is, for instance, vaguely represented in Williams, Mahayana Buddhism (1989, rep. 2007), p. 6:
"... As far as inscriptional evidence is concerned, Mahayana appears to have been an uninfluential minority interest well into the Common Era, originating firmly within the framework of other monastic traditions though of as non-Mahayana (Schopen, 1979; and forthcoming). It seems clear that Mahayana was in its origins and for some centuries almost exclusively the concern of a small number of monks and nuns from within the non-Mahayana schools, and as such subject to non-Mahayana Vinayas. The idea of schism or radical break, and dramatic religious changes, simply fails to cohere with what we now know of Buddhist religious development as it occurred, not in texts but in actual practice."
(Somewhere I recall reading the explicit dates for this above-identified co-existence as being between 100 CE and 500 CE, but I'm having trouble finding this source at the moment.)
I find this issue of Mahayana and "non-Mahayana" co-existing to be fascinating and valuable and thus I wanted to represent it somehow graphically. Perhaps, if we decide to pursue this graphic further, we can find a meaningful way to represent both what you are addressing and what I would like to see represented.
3. To make a long story short, I guess I was impressed somewhere with the sacking of Nalanda in 1198. I also see again in Robinson & Johnson (1982), p. 108, Fig. 1, they too terminate Buddhism in "India" at "1200 C.E." In their text, pp. 100-1, they write:
"... Nalanda was pillaged and burned in 1198, and, though it continued to function on a reduced scale for several decades, repeated attacks by Muslim marauders eventually exterminated the institution. Buddhism lingered for a few centuries as a folk cult in Bihar, Bengal, and Orissa, then disappeared. In south India, a renowned Buddhist center was located at Kancipuram (Conjeeveram), and as late as the fifteenth century a Theravada community existed there."
Harvey, An Introduction to Buddhism (1990, 15th rep. 2007), pp. 139-40, writes:
"... The north-eastern stronghold of Buddhism then fell, with the destruction of Nalanda university in 1198. In the north-east, east, and Kashmir, Buddhism lingered on for another two centuries or so, with some royal patronage in the latter two areas. In Kashmir it was forcibly stamped out by the Muslims in the fifteenth century. Buddhist refugees fled to south India (where Hindu kings resisted Muslim power), South-east Asia, Nepal and Tibet. The Theravada school flourished in the south until at least the seventeenth century, before it withdrew from the war-torn region to Ceylon...."
So, I guess after ca. 1200 CE Buddhism "lingered" in what I've seen referred to as the "fringes" and Himalayan area of India ... and then there's that southern Theravada community in the south that lasted until the 15th or 17th century? None of these latter elements are represented in the Robinson & Johnson graphic (p. 108, Fig. 1). Perhaps it's worth discussing criteria (e.g., number of adherents, geographic range) for inclusion on this graphic? Perhaps too there's the issue of the 20th revival (?) of Buddhism in India as well?
4. Frankly, a key reason for my developing this graphic (and as I indicate above, it wasn't originally for WP) was to try to make sense of the relationship between "Hinayana" and "Theravada." In my original graphic, the area that is here labeled "Early Buddhism" is labeled "Hinayana / Early Buddhism." I left off the "Hinayana" portion above because I thought it best to avoid that whole firestorm again. Nonetheless, I think it is worth considering a possible tautological fallacy many make:
doctrines: Hinayana:Mahayana:Vajrayana
traditions: Theravada:Mahayana:Tibetan
I think people often confuse doctrines and traditions, extrapolating from the above that "Hinayana = Theravada." So, I like labeling as "Mahayana" both the doctrines and the subsequently developed traditions (e.g., Ch'an, Tendai, Shingon, Pure Land, Zen, Nichiren) to raise this issue to conscious awareness. (FWIW, in the WP Mahayana article, it seems to me that it provides the latter definition [as a school juxtaposed with Theravada Buddhism] as primary. Also, tangentially, the WP Hinayana article appears to quote Ven. Rahula as objecting to "Hinayana" to "Theravada," but it does not necessarily indicate his views regarding "Hinayana" as applied to "pre-Mahayana" Buddhism. Another time?)
All this being said, I don't feel strongly about this. If you'd like different wording here, I'm completely open to it.
Honestly, I unhappily recall that our community's last attempt to develop a diagram for this page (here) — after a month of lively and thoughtful discussion by a number of people — was ultimately futile. I spent many hours working on those fruitless diagrams and, I think understandably, am disinclined to do so again. So, if the response to this diagram is solely negative (as it thus far has been), I'll not pursue this further here. Regardless, Peter, as always, thank you for sharing your take on the diagram as it is.
With metta,
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 07:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. If you can find the 2nd ed of Gombrich's book (2006), you'll see that he's revised the passage to follow his conclusion that the Buddha died around 400. This seems to be the majority view among specialists (see User:Peter jackson#The historical Buddha. In round numbers, therefore, Buddhism would start around 450.
  2. According to the Routledge Encyclopedia of Buddhism (article on Mahayana, I think), Mahayana didn't become a self-identified movement until the 4th century.
  3. The statement about Theravada in 17th cent is contested. It's based on archaeological evidence. However, there was certainly a substantial presence in one kingdom in the 16th century. Strictly speaking, Indian Buddhism never died out absolutely, even if we stick to the borders of modern India. It just became extremely small.
  4. I think notions of doctrines/traditions/schools ... need to be looked at carefully. Yanas are primarily traditions of practice. Elements of all 3 yanas exist within all 3 branches of the Buddhist tradition (Robinson et al, 5th ed, p xxi; see User:Spasemunki/Robinsonetal).
I do remember, & understand your attitude. Peter jackson (talk) 10:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Peter, thanks for the follow up.
(a) Regarding your assertion about the presistence of what we've labeled here as "Early Buddhism" into the so-called "Mahayana" and "Vajrayana" periods of Indian Buddhism, might the adjustment I made above to the diagram — extending a thin gold line across the bottom of "Mahayana" and "Vajrayana" — represent your understanding more clearly? Does the Mahayana line also need to be extended beneath the Vajrayana box?
(b) What text (words) would you recommend in the place of what is labeled above in the brown box as "Mahayana Buddhism"?
(c) I quickly scanned Gombrich's second book without success. Might you recall a page number for the later date re: the parinibbana?
Thanks again, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
(a) Yes
(b) Do we have to have a name other than East Asian?
(c) This is one of those books I have acces to only in bookshops, so I can't go into much detail. He does mention it in the preface to the 2nd ed.
Peter jackson (talk) 11:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Article assessment

Develop a strategy for article assessment, including reaching FA status.

What about GA? I'm afraid I don't know anything about either. Should they be dealt with simultaneously or not? Peter jackson (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I've given a link to the guide for article assessment, above. WP:GA and WP:FA each have their own set of criteria and nomination processes. We may want to go for GA before FA, although this was once a featured article. Sunray (talk) 21:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Just had a look at the link. GA seems to come before FA. Peter jackson (talk) 16:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and it might give us good feedback if we were to ask for a GA assessment at some point. Sunray (talk) 17:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

General comments, complaints, and/or observations not covered in the above

if you don't know where to put it, put it here; expect this section to be refactored frequently.

Semi-Protected

I think this page has to be Semi-Protected because its level of vandalism is increasing. {User: Hellboy2hell 08:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)}

You can place a request at WP:RFP. Peter jackson (talk) 10:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
<sigh...> that might be my fault - I've been doing a lot of vandalism patrols lately, and I think I'm getting some payback. my apologies... --<